Stranger Than Fiction: 100th Episode Final Push-Part C

Alright, friends, here we are—the final round of our After the Tones Drop 100th episode celebration. Part C, the big finish. And if Parts A & B took you on an emotional rollercoaster, this one is the comedy club you didn’t know you needed. We packed the room with some of our most legendary guests, and things got real fast—laughs, deep conversations, and maybe a few inappropriate jokes.

This episode brings back Chris Perry, the man behind Episode 70, Full Throttle Freedom, who’s still as patriotic as ever and pushing the needle on first responder mental health. William Young, from Episodes 48 and 59, Jailhouse Rock, is back reminding us why corrections officers deserve a seat at the table in the mental health conversation. Ricardo Martinez II, Episode 68, Call Me Maybe, and the voice behind Within the Trenches and the I Am 911 movement, joins us to talk about the power of storytelling in first responder wellness. And rounding out the guest list, Jason Callihan, the very first guest from Episode 1, Strength in Numbers, who played a huge role in launching this whole thing into existence, shares what peer support looks like when it’s done right.

We get into everything—what’s changed since these guests first joined us, what’s still frustrating as hell, and why the biggest obstacle to first responder wellness is often ourselves. We talk about how older generations might secretly be on board with mental health but are too stubborn to say it out loud, the importance of recognizing post-traumatic growth alongside PTSD, and how real change in first responder culture is happening, even if it’s moving at a crawl.

This episode is full of unfiltered, unscripted truth. It’s got heart, humor, and a room full of people who get it—people who have lived this work, fought through their own battles, and refuse to let the system stay broken. We love you. We see you. And we are so damn grateful for 100 episodes.

We’re Not Stopping Here. This isn’t just a celebration of 100 episodes—it’s a reminder of why we do this. We keep fighting, we keep lifting each other up, and we keep telling the truth, even when it’s ugly. Thank you for being part of this journey.

💬 Keep the Conversation Going: We’d love to hear your thoughts on this milestone episode! Tag us @AfterTheTonesDrop and share your favorite moments. Got a story to tell? We’re always listening.

DISCLAIMER:
After the Tones Drop has been presented and sponsored by Whole House Counseling. After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional health care advice diagnosis or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of assistance. You can also visit our shows resources page for an abundance of helpful information.

ATTD Music Credits (Music from #Uppbeat):

• https://uppbeat.io/t/vens-adams/adventure-is-calling License code: ANJCYVHRMULSNKQR
• https://uppbeat.io/t/vens-adams/rise-of-the-hero License code: H4WTAGJZIXZCM8DM
• https://uppbeat.io/t/yeti-music/homewardLicense code: KO7FZAIJBAEAJLKE
• https://uppbeat.io/t/sonda/the-heart-grows License code: KAID0ITO96GJZAPS
• https://uppbeat.io/t/philip-anderson/achievement License code: XZ4PMCKHW94GUR74
• https://uppbeat.io/t/tobias-voigt/nexus
  License code: MVMDRGHKHTJRABVR
• https://uppbeat.io/t/paul-yudin/breakthrough
  License code: FYPM3OJF0NQ4OGTE

Transcript

EP100C-Stranger than Fiction

Teaser:

Erin: [00:00:00] We are off to a great start this ordinary crowd, which I knew this was gonna be like the comedy hour of the three,

Cinnamon: What is the Willie Guy from the Goonies? 

William: You're calling me the sloth. from Goonies, so I don't know if I could say, uh... 

Cinnamon: Good to have you. Good, William Young.  

Erin: Good to be back. Feel real loved around here?

Chris: I, will the pirate though.

William: Yeah.but that's not what she meant.

Cinnamon: Not I come live with you. not that guy, but the pirate that has the patch that they find. 

Chris: I think she meant suave and debonair.

William: Or a dead rotting corpse on a ship that hasn't been seen in 200 years. 

Ricardo: but with a lot of treasure.

Jason: I don't have that on my wall. That's in the Bible Actually, I stole that from Jesus. 

Cinnamon: knew that book was gonna come up at some point in this epsiode.

Jason: Yeah, I stole it from him. Yeah. 

Cinnamon: Isn't that like plagiarism? 

Ricardo: people are like, no, that's what I want to hear. Let me tell you about this naked guy in stilts.  

Cinnamon: Pleases stop because I really wanna say bald, beefy men hugging with biceps. 

Intro:

Erin: You're listening to after the tones drop. The mental health podcast for first responders.
 

Cinnamon: We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist. 

Erin: And I'm Erin. A first responder integration coach.

Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, and the lives they now get to live. 

Cinnamon: [00:00:00] God, you guys...

Erin: know we are off to a great start this ordinary crowd, which I knew this was gonna be like the comedy hour of the three, Chris Perry over here trying not to pee his pants. And Ricardo, he's like, I got thoughts, but I won't say 'em. And William's just

Cinnamon: right. He is trying to be dignified and I'm here just putting my foot in my mouth left and 

Erin: dignified. 

Ricardo: Well, yeah, 

Erin: yeah. Uhhuh, here we go. But welcome back. This is round three of the after the tones drop hundredth episode extravaganza, which

Ricardo:  Woo. 

Erin: it has really turned out to be quite the extravaganza, hasn't it?

Cinnamon: Yes.

Erin: If you haven't listened to part A and B, because I did decide that I'm gonna roll out all three of 'em in full content, because there's been so many beautiful nuggets and connection and tears and laughter and breakthroughs, and it's all way too good to, pick and choose. So yeah, we've got part A, part B, and you guys are part [00:01:00] C.

Cinnamon: C for Comedy 

William: Mm 

Ricardo: Oh snaps. That works. That 

William: C's get degrees, so I'm totally okay with that. Yep.

Cinnamon: Yes. Let's talk about my stats class from grad school both times. Thank you.

Erin: But you did it. You did it. So yeah, we've had different energy every time it's been really, really cool. But this particular crowd today is definitely gonna be a lot of fun. And we're all up to no good.

 Cinnamon: Up to no good. Isn't that like a book thing? Like, I swear I'm up to no good. is that like a Harry Potter thing? I don't know. I'll get back to you guys and let 

William: Please. yeah, Get back to us. 

Ricardo: I think it is a Harry Potter thing.I don't remember what the actual saying is, but No, you're right.

Erin: See Ricardo, he always comes through. 'cause you and Cinnamon have such similar brains in a lot of ways. 

Cinnamon: Validation.

William: What's the thing on Harry Potter with the Dementors? That's the only thing I know about Harry Potter because that is exactly how correctional staff look, act, [00:02:00] feel all the time. That's just what we are, just gray ghastly, soul sucking abominations. And so that's the only thing I know about Harry Potter. That and, then a bunch of names I can't pronounce

Erin: Do you guys have a poster of that and you're not break room,

William: Yeah. Like we have a break room. No.

Erin: Exactly. That's what I'm saying. And you're not break room.

William: If we had a poster. we have the poster that says every day you don't work out. They do. That's what we have. That's our motivation for them. Right. While you're eating your lunch.

Cinnamon: I like that, but I'd also like inmates that said, I solemnly swear I am up to no good. 

Speaker 18: Like

Ricardo: that's what it is,

Erin: Here's what I wanna do. I wanna at minimum welcome our guests to the after the Tones 

Cinnamon: are these people you've gathered in this room with us? 

Erin: group of beautiful previous guests. And today we have one of our sisters from another Mr. Christopher Perry, episode 70, full Throttle [00:03:00] Freedom

Ricardo: America. Wow.

Erin: America. we have our boy. William Young episode 48 and 59. His episode's called the Jailhouse Rock, which is super cool. 

Ricardo: Very nice. 

Erin: we have Ricardo Martinez, the second within the trenches. 

Ricardo:  Hello. 

Erin: The, originator of hashtag I am 9 1 1.

Ricardo: I am very happy to be here.

Cinnamon: What's his episode number, Erin 68.

Erin: His episode 68 and it was called Call Me maybe because of an inside joke from our episode. And it made sense 'cause he's a dispatcher, but nobody got it. And so I changed it to something lame, like breaking the silence, which is still,

William: Hmm. 

Erin: I know, I mean, yeah. I can't win a can't. I know, but you know, episode titles do matter. I noticed it wasn't getting the attention it deserved. And so I was like, maybe it's the title, right? Like they don't know what that means. So, and then it changed.

Cinnamon: Or they have like a psychological affiliation with [00:04:00] that little teeny bopper and that was what they were rejecting.

Ricardo: Yeah, they're probably like, screw that episode. I can't stand that song.

Erin: that guy's dumb.

Speaker 17: Yeah.

Ricardo: Like, yeah, that makes sense. No,

Cinnamon: He's 

Ricardo: right. Yeah. 

Erin: I will say in the event that this does happen, we also may have another guest, Jason Callihan, Mr. Episode number one, who unfortunately has a sick child and will potentially be hopping on a little bit late. So we'll be happy to have him if he gets to come. If not, he knows he's loved and we're sending his kids some positive vibes.

Cinnamon: Just to be clear, we may not be here had it not been for Jason on several levels with him being episode one and kind of our gateway drug to this community, I. 

Ricardo: Very nice.

Erin: Gateway drug. Anyway, Cinnamon why do we bring these people back?

Cinnamon: because we really like a good time. No, I, think there's something that doesn't always 100% translate to the listener as much as we [00:05:00] would love it to. And that's the absolute awesomeness of the individuals that we get to hang out with and that real sense of community that we get to have. But everybody is doing such incredible work in their own valuable way that of course we want to share them as much as possible.

Again, what I just said about Cali, who knows where we would be had it not been for him. I think, that applies to any of our guests that we've had in the first 100 episodes. Like any one individual that we may not have had on with us or we would've met could have exponentially changed the trajectory.

Each and everyone have been an absolute blessing to us to be able to do what we're doing today.

Erin: Yeah, and each and every one have been up to some pretty big and incredible things, I think equally as important to celebrate A TTD and their 100th episode, but also to celebrate everything you guys have been up to. So it's the both and or the, [00:06:00] and both, as Cinnamon would say. So that's really what we wanna get into is what the heck has been going on? What are we celebrating?

Cinnamon: What are you guys doing to make the massive impact that we know that you do out in the world every day, that hopefully our listeners, have followed all of our guests after listening. But what do we need to know about? What have you been up to since you left? Has anything drastically changed since you were here?

Where can we find you? Where can we read what you wrote? What's going on? How about Why don't we start with you, Willie? Good old Willie Young. What is the Willie Guy character from the Goonies? Like 

William: will the, the sloth. You're calling me the sloth. So you, spent the first 20 minutes. this is why this episode's gonna be long. 'cause you spent 20 minutes talking about how incredibly attractive Chris was. And, and, how he looks as good as normal, and how me and Ricardo cleaned up.

Ricardo: Nice. And thanks for, you know, putting on a clean shirt. Now IYeah. 

William: I am the chunk [00:07:00] from Goonies, so I don't know if I could say, uh, fuck you, but, 

Cinnamon: Good to have you. Good, William Young. 

Erin: So to be back. Feel real loved around here?

Chris: Isn't one eyed willie the pirate though?

Cinnamon: Yeah. What?

William: Willie was the pirate. Yeah. but that's not what she meant.

Cinnamon: No, that's exactly what I meant. Not can I come live with you. : Like, not that guy, but the pirate that has patch that they find. Yeah.

Chris: I think. I think that meant suave and debonair.

William: Or a dead rotting corpse on a ship that hasn't been seen in 200 years.

Erin: my God. 

Ricardo: but with a lot of treasure

Speaker 17: gonna attract a gold digger 

William: which is actually... All right, so now what have I been up to? Well, first of the, I'm not okay to the, I'm okay. And then the, I'm okay to now I'm gonna, do that post-traumatic growth and all that stuff down there. And I'm still back with the people saying, Hey look, we need to get you to where you need to be.

And so there's still massive [00:08:00] resistance so I'm still trying to get people to understand, what they're up against. And so that's been the fight and the focus still traveling around speaking, talking, writing, and saying, Hey, I know that this doesn't make sense right now to you, but you need to prepare yourself.

'cause at some point it will make sense. So that's sort of what I've been doing still, more of the same. But, I just don't feel like, at least in my little section of the community, that we're very much further than we were last time.

Erin: Yeah, but you further, you have a whole new book.

William: I do. So lemme get, lemme show you.

Cinnamon: Wait, can I also 

Erin: don't be all like, don't be humble. I'm like, should I get mine? 

William: Let me, let me see.  I just happen to have 200 copies sitting behind me. I have a great endorsement on the back. This is fantastic. From an Erin,some clinician that, yeah. That decided to sign off on this. No. So when I'm looking at what is been happening and what's going on and, and, oh, there it is. Look at it, it's so pretty. I narrowed it down to a few things and one of them is that [00:09:00] the way we train our people, the information that we give them is still total bullshit. We're still not preparing people for the emotional damage that they're going to endure by doing the job. And so I really went after training and saying, look, we wellness  can't just be a class. It can't just be a presentation. It can't just be a podcast. It can't be one book. It has to be a way of life.

And what I want to see people doing, and the big push for me has been over the last, few months, is weaving wellness into everything that we do. It's gotta be. With every concept that we teach, everything from, from putting handcuffs on somebody, the way that your mind goes crazy as you're racing through the scenarios to get those cuffs off.

 William: And then once they go on, you're okay. And you're like, ho, holy crap. that was like an insane,you know, experience one of the examples that I give to the new hires when I talk is, you know, where do you put your keys on your duty belt? And they talk about it and I say, okay, well why? And then they go into this big, long conversation about, well, my strong hand and my [00:10:00] weak side, and I want to be able to fight if I need to do this.

And I'm like, look, everything that we do has life or death consequences. And because you're looking at the world that way, it's going to do some damage to your psyche and you really need to pay attention to it. so me, I've kind of tried to niche down and say, Hey look, let's start attacking the why on these things and see if we can push agencies one step further instead of just saying, let's bring this guy in. Let's let him give his class and then I leave and nothing changes to how can we make this what we do. And so that's the purpose behind trying to change, and that's the push that, I've been trying to make. so we'll see. We'll see what happens. It's gotten some good feedback and I'm pretty excited about it.

So we'll just keep seeing if we can change the way that we do business.

Cinnamon: William, man, I read the book too. It's such a tender piece of literature. I feel like it's the version of when you get down on a knee to talk to a child, you know, getting eye level with what is truly happening. And we talk a lot about that culture change and the phrase that we've already [00:11:00] established, in the mental health world that we haven't really used in the first responder world that I've seen is trauma informed.

 How do we create an environment that is based on the theory that we have all come into it with experiences of trauma and that needs to be taken into consideration even. When you were talking about putting on handcuffs, my first thought was I would imagine most of those inmates are, are traumatized, you know, so having that awareness that there are gonna be some people that are gonna react really poorly to things like that.

But having the awareness to like be trauma informed as an agency, but also aware of how trauma impacts people's behavior in that and to have that in the back of your mind, not to compromise your own safety, but to at least understandthat there's more than one reason that somebody does something. 

William: No, and I a hundred percent agree with that. In fact, so there's people that teach trauma-informed care, right? And they go and they learn and [00:12:00] then they, well. we teach our officers, you know, trauma-informed care. I mean, well that's great. So you're teaching us, again, another skill to deal with our population so we understand, look, they're acting up because of this. They're gonna react this way because of this, and that's great. Here's the thing, if you believe in that and you believe that's important, then you also have to believe that your staff are equally traumatized and they have their own baggage. And so teaching them trauma-informed care is not teaching them how to take care of themselves. And so you still need that extra peace. and I guess for me, that's the frustrating part is that. we have these things in place, at least in our place for how do we deal with the inmates, how do we take care of the inmates, how do we make sure the inmates are handled appropriately and that, we dispatch chaplains and counselors and things when there's an inmate suicide or something like that. And then there's zero. For us, you know, there's nothing for us except a, you know, a peer support team that nobody wants to talk to. so the education piece for me has been the big push. [00:13:00] You know, things like sanctuary trauma. 

If you have a situation in a housing unit where an inmate, dies in custody and your officer who's working that unit found them and they're having a problem, you need to move that person from that area. But that doesn't mean to the housing unit next door that looks, smells, sounds exact same, that means to a completely different part that doesn't remind them, won't trigger them, you know, all of that. And we, we learn things like that with trauma informed care. But the little piece to that could be, Hey, also guys, understand that you are also traumatized by some of these things and you can use some of these principles on your own people.

And so that's, sort of the missing piece. and it is just, we're just missing the mark just a little bit. And so I. I. like that we're doing those things and acknowledging those things, but then also understand that yeah, trauma is not just for the people that we all help like you know, Ricardo's talking through people and Chris is interacting with people and yeah, those people are going through traumatic things, but we're [00:14:00] right there with them as well. I brought up with our new hire class,I do a little presentation. I'm talking about trauma and you know, what's traumatic and then I say, you know, it really doesn't matter what my definition is because it's up to the person. and then I said, let me go through our stats last year in this facility.

And so I come across this fun little stat that says like, the average person experiences two to three traumatic events in a lifetime or something like that. and so I said, well, based on our definitions, let me run through what we consider as a facility. Critical events from last year. And it was 900, between the fights and the medical emergencies and the inmate deaths and the staff assaults and all these 900 events. and so. I mean, look at what you're dealing with in one year, and then take that time a 20 year career. so it's a good illustration to say, look, I kind of trick you into what you think is traumatic. And then I show you, oh, by the way, this is what you're gonna be subjected to, what you have been subjected to.

Now what's your problem? You know? And so I'm still a in your face kind of person about it because I feel like we're screwing it up and I feel like we're costing [00:15:00] people their relationships, their marriages, their lives, by not calling things what they are. Yeah. 

Cinnamon: Thank you

William: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: you taught me a lot in just what you shared in my mind. I was like, yeah, we have a word for this, so why don't we create some trauma informed agencies where that's how you treat your peers and your subordinates. And I'm like, oh, and by the way, a bonus is that you can learn a little something about the inmates and come to find out you guys are actually doing it for the inmates on a regular.

And what's been missing is for you all. So yeah, I'm glad to know that at least the idea is out there. But the key part of it is that you gotta do it for each other and yourselves. That is what is missing. And that just seems like the easiest. Part, but then you gotta get into that conversation about policy and then it's not just, that introductory training on here's your amygdala, but it gets deeper and deeper.

So, well, thank you William. You're just a real superstar, [00:16:00] even with only one eye. Can we have Ricardo Martinez, the duh. Tell us about his life next.

Erin, are we cool with that? 

Ricardo: Of course

Erin: Yeah, I do wanna say, William, I, I'm gonna tell you, you have always been a breath of fresh air. I.

William: Thank you. 

Erin: To this particular community. And they might not say that, but one day they will. And it might be a decade from now, but I see you as the ringleader in this change in the world of corrections. And if anybody ever brings up corrections officers who were up to big things or spoken to about their chapter for their book or whatever, like you are the man every single time. And it's hard to be out there alone in this world being the voice, but your voice is so profound and important. And this is exactly why we wanted to invite you to Kentucky. And wereally wanted Ricardo there too, because we wanted that dispatcher and corrections voice in the forefront. Like they aren't typically in the forefront [00:17:00] at these symposium and conferences.

So I've loved you from day one. I am so honored to be in your circle. And you know, I just want you to hear that like what you're doing is a big deal and it matters. 

William: you. I uh, I appreciate that because I don't know about the other two gentlemen's worlds. Mine's not really warm and fuzzy, and so I get a lot of, I get a lot of backlash and I get a lot of angry people who don't understand what we're trying to do here. And so I, that, that does mean a lot to me because it is those little comments, the little messages, the little emails that keep, us going, that keep me going because I, I mean, I'm telling you, there's days where I'm like, what's the point?

this is too much to take on. then that one person will reach out and let me know. and I'll just real quick, but one of the messages I got early on in my journey here was from a gal, uh, whose husband was a correctional officer, and he had killed himself. And I still talk to her. I was, I've been messaging her this week, it's been five years back and forth asking her about her daughter.

 I had her send me some pictures of him. And it's just [00:18:00] when you start carrying the weight of other people and put yourself out there in this capacity, Those people become part of your family, their concerns, their nightmares, you know, all of that you carry with you and, and I'm trying to do what I'm trying to do you know, for them, not for me. I, I'm gonna be okay, but that's not enough for me. mean, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to save people so they don't get, uh, the position that I was in. 

So thank you for that. I appreciate that Erin 

Erin: Of course. Yeah. 

Yeah. It just occurred to me, we have one cop, one firefighter, one dispatcher, and one corrections officer in this group. If Jason does get to join us, and that's pretty special to have all of the voices heard. We don't have a medic. but you know, Jason's a medic. So, yeah. Uh, sorry to, to snag the spotlight from you, sir Ricardo. 

Ricardo: No, I I'm enjoying this. I, like hearing from every discipline of, public safety and how it works, but also what is not working and what people are doing to try to fix things or at least make it better or the [00:19:00] way I see it for, dispatch as well, leave it in a better place than where we found it.

So, no, this is, good. Well done, man. Very, very well done.

Erin: Hmm. Yay. And that's the thing too, is like we get to be each other's cheerleaders. That's what's So cool about being in this space is supporting each other. So feel free to piggyback or comment on what the other person's sharing and saying. So Ricardo, what's been up with you buddy? All over the country 

Ricardo: Um, yeah, I like your, uh, Polly Shore there that you had going there. The little we solve little bit. 

Erin: Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Ricardo: That's right. Geez, I'm trying to think of the things that have been going on since uh, I was last on for one. Thank you very much. Same thing like, William, thank you for, for the opportunity to be on in the first place and to be able to come back and just talk And congratulations on 100. That is very awesome.

I have been traveling, as you mentioned, since we last spoke. And what I do traveling around to [00:20:00] different dispatch centers is it's an eight hour communications course, but it's a back to basics on communications. 'cause I'm a firm believer that at one time or another we forget what it was like for us in the beginning. And a lot of times that is when people start eating. They're young and we. The masters of communication, but when it comes to communicating with each other, it doesn't work. So this eight hour class is basically based around my story and stuff that happened to me, but all of it as well is through the power of storytelling and people just kind of reconnecting, reflecting on their careers. And I also have my peer support session within that eight hours. And I tell people all the time in class, what I love the most is when I start explaining what we're going to be doing. And you see the look on their faces thinking, oh shit, this is not a regular communications course. We're actually gonna be learning about ourselves and talking and sharing stories and such that way.

Ricardo: And, then, we get into it and there's some [00:21:00] heavy parts, right? But then like to weave a lot of humor in there as well. 'cause I want both. I'm a firm believer that laughing is good medicine, just like we've been doing already today. So I've, I've been doing that. I've been going to different dispatch centers teaching, but also doing little highlight videos of their centers so that people can see what a center looks like, whether it's Polk County and Florida, it's enormous. Big screens everywhere or in smaller dispatch centers where there's just like four or five consoles and showing what everybody does, what it's like for them, and uh, just getting that perspective from either side. Also, you know, doing the podcast at different conferences and I also published a book recently.

I don't remember if the last time I was on with you if Volume two of Imagine Listening was out. I think it might have been, cause volume one was already out originally, but I think that was something that happened that we hadn't discussed yet. It was in between where the original [00:22:00] volume one of Imagine listening. I got screwed on that. My now former publisher, I never got any royalties or anything for that book. Still have not. And it's actually still for sale out there. So I republished it as a lot of people said,this is your Taylor Swift thing and, and people who were listening on my open mic live, they go, we're not your swifties though, we're your trenchies.

William: Nice. 

Ricardo: Because of within the trenches, they're like, we're trenches. 'cause it's Ricardo's version of volume one that is out there now. And I launched that February 16th of, of this year, which was also the anniversary of the first nine oh one call that was ever placed in Haleyville, Alabama. So I made sure to have it launch on that day and it's been going good, you know, just traveling, teaching and just trying to get people to talk a lot more. Helping them feel more comfortable with talking it. Like there's a, a recruitment piece that I do, and it's called Recruitment [00:23:00] through the Power of

Storytelling. And I'll ask people, how many of you're recruiters? And like one or two people will raise their hands and then I'll go, all right, cool. Let me ask you again. How many of you are recruiters? And then they, oh, we all are like, yes. Because it's how you talk about what it is that you do that leaves that. lasting impression, but also the perception of what it is that you do within the profession of 9 1 1. You can inspire someone with your story and your voice. You can change everything.

So we go through all of that and I try to explain certain things and elements of storytelling so that dispatchers can feel more comfortable talking about what it is that they do. Because all the time whenever someone I. Says what do you do for a living? You're like, oh, I don't know if I wanna say, and then they'll say, you know, I'm a 9 1 1 dispatcher. But the reason is because of that one question of, so what's the worst call you've ever taken? So within talking with all of them, I try to tell them, You know, instead you can do kind of what I do. You know, I, I tell people, I have taken [00:24:00] calls that would give you nightmares because they gave me nightmares, but I can give you a funny or outrageous one.

And people are like, no, that's what I want to hear. I'm like, okay, lemme tell you about this naked guy in stilts. so 

William: Right. 

Ricardo: So it's it's been a lot of trying to get people to talk more, but also at the same time, like last night I had a a round table discussion, a live one where we were talking about peer support, but peer support for dispatchers who have retired out.

There are people that I know that have retired out and they start going through that imposter syndrome where they feel like they can't reach back out to their 9 1 1 family because they're not part of it anymore. So now they're struggling. So we're talking also about peer support for nine one professionals once they are out of dispatch that kind of stay, involved somehow, even if it's like volunteering at a conference or something where they still feel like they're part of it.

Because sometimes, and and some people have joked, they're like, well, blood and blood out, man, you're, you're gone. I'm like, well, I mean, that's [00:25:00] funny, but that kind of sucks for some people that are really struggling. And I do know of folks that are struggling and they're, getting help, right?

They're going to therapy, but sometimes peer support is almost best from the people that you know, because they come from there. So that's a lot of the stuff that I've been doing lately.

William: That's a hard switch when you leave and you are somebody, you have a role, you know what your role is and you know how to handle your shit,

and then you leave. It's the same with us. You leave and and who are you? How do you even fit into this world? The rules don't apply, so what you're doing there That's super awesome, Thank you, man. I, I appreciate it. one person that spoke to about a month ago, the main thing she said was when I left dispatch, I had to remember how to feel again. And

Ricardo: that hit hard because I I realized that I too went through that. It was, maskeda little bit because I was, doing the podcast, traveling, [00:26:00] teaching, talking to a lot of dispatchers, doing the peer support session that I do.

But I also went through the same shit. It's you. gotta figure out how to manage through it. But a lot of it has come from just simply talking and having some good conversations.

Erin: Well, that's all people want is that connection and somebody to be like, yeah, me too. I mean, that's it. There isn't a whole lot that can make me personally feel better than someone say, oh man, that's tough. Yeah, me too. I get it. And this is not unique to dispatch. You know, we see this happen all the time.

People retiring And being like, what about my boys in blue? You know, like we see it and it sucks that it's that out of sight, out of mind kind of thing. Especially when there's so much intense. Relationship being built through the runs and through the calls, and through all of the experiences that you guys are up against, even though you might not be processing it in those moments, you're still having those moments that are a lot of times changing the trajectory [00:27:00] of the way you think and feel and react together, and then it's like ripped away from you and that, that's challenging.

And I, I gotta say, Ricardo, thank you for having us on your virtual conference. Brain farting on the name, what was it called? 

Ricardo: Oh, so the virtual event is, uh, dare to Be Great. And the, session that we did, which was awesome, it was, it was like an hour and a half, I think we went over a little bit, but it was a really good, when people continue to go back and watch it, it was called No Dispatcher Left Behind. And we were talking about this for that hour and a half, and we were fielding questions from the audience, and there was, I think maybe 1100 people watching from all Over the world 

Erin: That's why I brought it up.

Ricardo: time for that virtual event. 

Erin: Yeah, it's not about us being on, it was about, I was just floored when I hopped on and I was, saw 1100 people. I'm like, am I seeing that number right? Like, holy crap, just,

Ricardo: said, 

Cinnamon: that the wishlist or is that like what's actually happening? With the 1100? [00:28:00] 

Ricardo: so those are the people that are, registered, but there was an enormous chunk of those registered were watching at the time.

But I always tell people think about it as that entire 1100 at that moment, because they're all registered, they're all gonna watch it either way. And those are the people that are watching. And uh, yeah, we had, we had people from Qatar and like all over the place, some in Iceland that were watching. It was like, holy crap.

Cinnamon: As you were sharing that I went back in my mind to that 

conference and how, man, if we get confused about the universal nature of the toll of first responder work, like everybody retires, right? This is not a unique thing, and as you were talking about it, I'm literally visualizing the star quarterback going back into the high school hallways and nobody knowing who the hell he is.

And it's like, I worked so hard to be so good and make a difference, and [00:29:00] nobody knows that I'm the guy that put the trophies in that glass case. And simultaneously, there's another quarterback that's actively running that team. and even if you are legendary, there are still gonna be people that they're not gonna think to reach out to you.

Erin: Yeah. 

Ricardo: Right. and one of the things that I've been telling a lot of people that, have been in classes is, how do you wanna be remembered? Like when you're,  going through all of this, how do you want to be remembered, but also at the same time, you need to start taking care of yourself now, you know, if I could go back, I would've started doing more meditation, yoga, and breathing techniques more than the last year And a half that I was in dispatch.

And, and I, I tell people in class, this might sound like bullshit and. You, can brush it off or scoff at it, but I'm telling you, it'll help. And I'm telling you from experience, I'm not a doctor or anything, I'm telling you people will be in there and they're like, no, I actually started looking into some of this stuff too. or even journaling, [00:30:00] you know, just writing down your wins because after all of the hard calls and you. maybe you forget or wonder, like a lot of us have said here too, like, am I in the right place? Am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? Should I move on? Or what? You can look back in at those wins and remember that why, remember all of those big wins that you had and kind of center yourself.

 But I, I, tell them like, you need to take care of yourself now and this eight hour class there's a huge introduction in you starting to look at you and how to figure that out because I'm telling you it's going to come back. Whether you think it is or not, whether you're that person who says, I put it on the shelf and it stays at work, it doesn't come home with me. That's bullshit because it does. And I have tons of people who have said it came back and people are looking into it and they're starting. I've gotten emails from people saying, I drove home after class and here's my I am 9 1 1 story. I couldn't tell it in front of [00:31:00] everyone, but here it is and I wanna share it, and I'm gonna start looking into these things to start now so that I'm not struggling later on. 

Erin: Ugh. 

Cinnamon: So what you're saying is almost like the echo when somebody is doing really hard work in the therapeutic setting we're talking about complicated things and feelings and, the things that derive from this work and time is up and they say, oh, by the way, tell me how to stop yelling at my kid.

And I'm like, wait, okay. Did you miss the whole, like, there there is no quick answer. The answer is go meditate every day. Right? Like, that is how you stop yelling at your kid. We don't always do a great job articulating how the minutiae sized problems of our day-to-day life cannot be solved with either starting or stopping a behavior that I can give you a one line response to. It's, oh, it's super easy. Change your whole life.

William: Right. See, and I think the problem for me in my experience is that you don't even [00:32:00] know that there's a problem. That, the person that says, stop me from yelling at my kids. I work with people that are just yelling. and I wrote about this in the book. I'm running my household like a, jail. and I think that I'm just doing a great job 'cause I'm maintaining order and nobody's stabbing anybody and everything's great. I don't even understand that what I'm doing is harming my family. And soI talked about earlier, I want to get 'em to the, that acknowledgement piece. I mean, there is help out there. That's the thing. Ricardo's out there, you guys are out there doing your thing, you're seeing clients there is help, right? But if you don't know that you need the help. Then that's the, for me, the main start. and so that's where I put the responsibility back on us and our professions who create these monsters who give you these, warped worldview and say, Hey, you're gonna hear some crazy stuff when you answer that phone, but you have a job to do and you need to shut off whatever you need to shut off and you need to get the people there.

And for me, I just run into whatever I'm running into and we mop up the room, [00:33:00] we move to the next thing, and then we leave the people with that. And then we think we're doing a really good job because we are able to go from back and forth in this and, and then when we stop running or when we get to a point where we can no longer take anything else, like. I remember in a therapy session, my therapist is like, well, what do you, what do you, want to do? Because I was complaining about some stupid stuff.and she's like, what do you wanna do? And I said, well, I just wanna go hiking. I wanna go walk up the mountain, and I just wanna lay there until some college kids find me at some point.

And she's like, oh,um, I said, eh, it could be a month, it could be two months. right now, all I want to do is lay down. I don't care about anything. You know? So When you're young. and I like the, going back to the basics becauseyou don't see those things, you don't realize that I've been in corrections for 20 years and the inmate that you're complaining about and that you think, no jail's ever seen any inmate like this ever before.

Every generation has this guy, we've all fought this guy. This guy will continue for years and years. And so I [00:34:00] think it's cute. I'm like, oh, you guys are, look at how frustrated you are. That's so cute. You know, and, and when I talk to people, they're like, well, Did you ever work in a housing?

Yes, I did. I did my time. you know, but I have to reestablish myself every time because they think that they're the only person that's ever dealt with this and that's not true. And so you have to crack that nut. And that's why it's so important for these people to go out, because I look at myself as a bridge.

I have zero answers. Right? but I can tell you that I have been down the path that you're going down and if you continue down that path, bad shit's down that path. And if you want to do that, then that's totally fine. But if you, don't want to do that, if there's even a little bit, or your husband, or your wife or your kids or, or someone has told you, dude, you're different then let's try this.

Let's do this. Because there is help. But the key is acknowledging that you even need the help. So that's the frustrating part for me. 

Erin: Yeah, William, I think you should just go around telling people you've never been in a housing unit and just say, you do this work because of [00:35:00] Orange Is the new Black. Like, yeah, that, 

William: people. 

Speaker: That's where I got my education. I watched that show. 

Cinnamon: a well, I I wrote down, uh, because man, I've, never seen somebody do so many beautiful things with metaphors. You know, William, you are the bridge that cracks the nut that has walked the same path already, like 

William: have all that shit written up on my wall. I'm just, honestly, I just chat 

Cinnamon: You. Yeah. 

William: do, yeah. 

Cinnamon: I mean, you went from being a bridge to a, path walker to cracking nuts and shit. I mean, that was beautiful. That was beautiful. 

William: Thank you Cinnamon. Thank you very much. 

Erin: Well. Gosh, Ricardo, you're so much fun. You are also such a gift to what you're doing. You know, you speak so eloquently and also so relatable. I was like, oh, he should have a podcast with the way that he speaks. I'm just kidding. Your podcast has been around, I think before podcasts even were a thing, right? Like 

Ricardo: Something like that.Yeah, it's, uh, so it started at the end of [00:36:00] 2012,in the beginning of 2013. So I've been doing this for over a decade now, and, I don't ever toot my horn, so I'm gonna take a chance to moment. 

Erin: toot toot. buddy.

Ricardo: But, it's hurt in over 60 countries and I recently surpassed 2.3 million downloads.

And, I only say this actually, not really to toot my own horn, but just to say that I never thought when I started this out of my own struggle in dispatch and my own recovery really. Trying to figure out me and what would be therapeutic for me, which was storytelling, that it would be where it is today. and to spawn off to, imagine listening and all these other things that I do. Now, the I'm nine one movement, but wanted to say really quick, with William as well, there've been some times where people have kind of scoffed at the storytelling piece. And I've told people in classes or in the, conferences during the, the Imagine Listening session saying, [00:37:00] listen, I get it.

Some people don't understand this part, but it's because you're not ready to speak yet. When you are, you'll open up. It'll be okay. But what I have found in my travels, my experience all this time doing all of this, is that those that sometimes scoff or that say that we're just winding or whatever, sharing these stories or whichever, that it's like a rookie thing to do. Those are the people that need the most help.

Sometimes those have been the folks who have found me after class or later on a different day during the conference and will say, I actually would like to share a story with you. And we just share it one-on-one and then they walk off. I absorb it, and then I have to go do a breathing technique too, you know, to get it out.

But, I'm all about it. If it's gonna help someone by just needing a one-on-one to share a story, then let's do it. But that's what's been going on, and it has been an experience that I wouldn't change.

Erin: Mm. And [00:38:00] we love you and you're just doing such a fantastic job. You're so much fun.

Ricardo: It's been fun.

Erin: Well, hi, welcome Jason Callihan

Cinnamon: Mr. Number one is here 

Erin: episode, one. Strength In Numbers is the episode and also our, ride or Die. Jason Callihan is the reason why Cinnamon is who she is, and therefore I am who I am in this world. So I know you have a sick child, Jason. I know Chris Perry is at work, but just to catch you up, Jason, we're really just talking about what's been going on since you've been on the show.

I know that for you, your world looks a little bit different than maybe Ricardo or William, but that doesn't make any difference because what you are doing with your department in, in your communityis equally as important. So whoever wants to share next, I will let you guys rock, paper, scissors.

Jason: Chris can go ahead. He's at work, so he's busier than I am.to an all day to do it now. 

Chris: You sound. [00:39:00] Jason, you sound like you got your hands full with the kid, so you. can go ahead if you'd like to. 

Jason: it's okay. You go ahead. I like listening.

Chris: Alright, so what I would tell you is the Nashville Wellness Summit it was a really impactful experience for me and not just because of the things that I heard, but the people that I met, building those new relationships and everything was phenomenal and made so many different things go into motion.

And I think at least for the three of us, we've all built new friendships, which has been awesome. And one of the key things that I've started using now, and it was, when I looked at the schedule of events for the day and I saw PTG, the abbreviation, I looked at it and I had to think for a second of what that was.

And then the light bulb went off. And I thought, we don't talk about that near enough because if you look at PTSD immediately it hit you in the face and you're like, I know exactly what that is. I know how horrible it's, and I know that we can beat it, but PTG, it didn't register with me. So the. Last weekend, Dr.

Birkley and I did a presentation and I, I went [00:40:00] pretty heavy on the post-traumatic growth because I think it has to be represented equally with a diagnosis. You know, we confirmed you, you have ptsd. I remember hearing those words and I my head was spinning thinking like, how am I gonna get outta this?

You know, it's no fault of anybody, but if, if post-traumatic growth would've been mentioned at that time, it probably would've calmed me down quite a bit And given me some direction and some inspiration on where to turn my focus and that this is a real thing that I can get better. because when you first hear it you're thinking, I mean, what is. this?

How am I gonna make it out of this? You know it's, overwhelming. But then, when I started thinking about things, I'm where I am today. I'm literally alive and breathing today because of it and because of the. people that supported my post-traumatic growth being able to look back on 22 years of PTSD TD and not feeling bitter about it and not looking at people. When they asked [00:41:00] me, aren't you, upset that you wasted 22 years of of your life? Life? I didn't waste that. And I see it that way because of post-traumatic growth that got me here to a life that I never thought. Imagine world, that's much better. than I ever thought it, could be. And it never would've gotten here without those 22 years ago. Post-traumatic growth saved my life and it'd saving other people's lives, and we have got to give that equal time When we discuss ptsd s after we did the presentation, there were a few people that got ahold of me and they're like, that's really inspirational.

I love hearing that. I haven't heard that angle of it before. you know, once again, I had tears in my eyes and I'm looking and I'm thinking how incredibly fortunate I'm to be where I'm, so the tail end of that part is, I truly believe without a spirituality component to all this, I don't think you can get to a hundred percent.

 just don't think it's possible. I don't wanna hurt anybody's feeling by saying, that. is my personal opinion. I had a missing piece of the puzzle And I couldn't figure [00:42:00] out what it was spirituality came to be. And that last piece of the puzzle clicked in place and it's been straight up from there. You know, and it doesn't matter what you believe in it, as long as you have a spiritual component in your life you know, like, you guys know how I am. I was excited about the eclipse last night to learner eclipse. You know, I'm waiting for the moon. and I same way I take pictures of sunsets and sunrises. You know, that's my inspiration, that's my reminder that the world is a good place and there are beautiful things to see. and you meet incredible people and not everybody is, bad.

You know, and I love to sit down with people in a bad place and pick out the positives in their life, and you watch 'em smile and you're like, okay, this, this, is a win. it's a step in the right direction. We're not gonna fix this whole thing right now, but we have to establish almost like a roadmap for 'em or, or a path that they can go down to get where they will ultimately be. 

Cinnamon: You know, Chris, we've had so many so I know what you mean by [00:43:00] spirituality. But for someone who might automatically go to religiosity, can you kind of speak a little bit more into what do you mean by spirituality? Like how do you, translate a sunset into your spirituality? Just so other people have a idea of what that looks like for someone like you. 

Chris: So the sunsets bring me peace because I can see that one day is closing, but I know that there's another day coming and I'm looking forward to that sunrise. The sunrises just energize me, take this as is what I consider to be spirituality. I work with a guy that was going through some stuff. I help him get through it.

I would send him sunrise pictures all the time to kind of get his fire lit. This is the beautiful stuff you'll see. And then one morning on my way to work, I go to this valley and I look to the right, which is east. And I see this incredible sunrise and I can't take a picture of it 'cause I'm driving and within about five seconds he sends me the [00:44:00] same sunrise picture. That spirituality right there, there's a connection. Like you've made a connection that very few people in this world can make and you've got it for life. He sent me a picture of the moon last night right after I tookmy picture of the moon. So I mean, call it whatever you wanna call it, you know laugh at it, whatever.

But there's an energy that's felt between people that have gone through The stuff that we've gone through 

Erin: Mm-hmm. 

Chris: and it's just there and it's incredible. And when your mind is open to it. You can receive that. 

There's nothing like that. I've never felt anything like that. None of the adrenaline dumps that I sought for years could ever make me feel like that. hearing people appreciate nature and appreciate relationships, And you just see them in a different light and their expression looks different, their eyes look different. You know, their shoulders aren't up around their ears anymore. I mean, that's a spiritual connection. you make with somebody. and to be a part of that as an incredible gift. It is. 

But I, I, get a lot of my power [00:45:00] from nature and healing and therapy is found with nature, with animals. I love birds. Birds always happen to come right around the same time when something's going on, you know? and there's specific birds that remind me of people that. I've lost. And then this one day, it was Monday, within about two hours, I saw both of those types of birds.

And I just smiled and I was like you know, this is fantastic. Those are things I never saw before. 

Erin: And Chris, you and I have had those moments that we shared the same rainbow picture from different places in Ohio or different. sides. And what I hear and what you're sharing about spirituality is presence. The things that you're noticing could not have been noticed before because there was a lack of presence. and, now you can be there and connect in a different kind of way because you are actually aware of what's going on around. 

Cinnamon: So I was writing a ton of notes because when you started talking about PTG, you had said to understand post-traumatic growth [00:46:00] was so important to you and basically gave you a label for what this other side of your journey has been. And had you had that label that information that freeze when you first were getting diagnosed, it would've, maybe created a little bit more hope on my side. one of the things that I talk about with these labels is how, they're clusters, you take all of these symptoms that these psychologists and therapists and everybody has seen, and you write 'em on a piece of paper and you throw 'em in the middle of the table, and then you grab a handful that you've seen in one person and you give that a label and let's call it anxiety, then you throw all those pieces back in and then you grab.

A different handful, some of which were in the anxiety label and some were not. And now you've got depression, and then you throw them all back in and then grab another handful. You've got PTSD and on and on and on. And so the idea that, those labels have been created for our benefit in the clinical world to help you, [00:47:00] but in reality, 

we really need to focus on how they're being created, and then taken out of the, the jargon world to give to you all so you can know what that looks Like Like you were literally doing post-traumatic growth and in the throes of it, and didn't even know that that necessarily was what you were doing. So thank you for that reminder of how important it is to, to be sharing those things, you know, even outside of our little bubble. The other thing, the reason that I wanted to ask you about spirituality is, as you were talking, all I could think of was dialectical or dichotomous. Everything you knew, including the PTS and the PTG, is in relationship to only knowing it because you knew the opposite. Right? And so when I asked you to describe spirituality, what I heard you say was peace and hope. And your whole journey prior to PTG was the absence of peace and hope and all the language that you were [00:48:00] using, like identifying the positive and counting your wins. And you know, there are people out there that are good, that aren't just bad or the energy. All of those you have learned and can teach everybody else because of your acute deep experience with that dialectical opposite. Like you are a person that isn't going, you know, I really wanted to become a spokesperson for first responder, law enforcement, mental health, because I was really intrigued by what I was watching in other people. You know, like, this is your life. And, I don't know, sometimes I think it's important to point out those really cool things that you hear from others and that for just the words that you were using, And I, I don't really have a great point other than I wanna make sure you knew how important and how powerful the language that you were using and that little spiel you just had was, and what you were really saying [00:49:00] in, addition to what you were actually saying. 

Erin: and thank goodness we have it recorded, so now you won't forget. 

Chris: it, just, it, you know, all 

of it's driven from emotion. You know, I don't talk with my head, I talk with my heart, and it comes through in ways that there's, I think I've told you both before. There's sometimes I'll say. I hear myself saying that, and I'm like, who in that hell is that saying that that's incredible.

Like, I listened to it. I'm think, who is this? Because for so long it was just nothing but going down a dark road and the, the further along the road I went, the darker it got and it was just straight downhill from there. And that's where I got comfortable and that's where I lived. And now I live in a completely different place. I will always be eternally grateful. You know, sometimes I ask why me? Like, why was I chosen to do this? But then I start thinking about It I'm like, well, I guess I'm call myself an expert on, you know, life being terrible and experiencing horrible things like it was my life for so long. and now getting to see the other side [00:50:00] is like just so much fuel for me to keep driving forward.

Speaker : Yeah, 

Erin: and like, William said, it's like it takes seeing it and it took a while for you to see it, to be able to get here, you 

Cinnamon: just a mere 22, years 

Chris: a quarter century.

Erin: that's all. That's it

Cinnamon: and it. What as still worth it. 

Erin: when you got here, you took it real seriously. 

William: Mm-hmm. 

Chris: Well, it's life or death, you know, that decision was pretty easy to make. You know, I didn't know how to do it, but I knew I wasn't, giving up and I wasn't gonna die because that, was the alternative. It was life or death as real as it gets. And I, knew I wasn't gonna exist much longer. So you, you never realize how much you love life until you're close to losing it. and I've, been there a few times on the job with different things and I've never fought harder. When you're in that life And death situation, when you know that if you give up or if you slip, if you don't give a hundred percent, you are going to die. That is an incredible amount of motivation. Right.

As I heard the [00:51:00] diagnosis, I was like this is life or death. I do. Let's get after it. Let's get done. 

Erin: And we're so glad you did. 

Chris: Me. Yeah.

Erin: Well, I'm anticipating children running in from the bus. So cinnamon. I 

already kind of got Callihan going, but why don't you do a more formal with All the love 

Cinnamon: With 

Speaker: gushing. 

Cinnamon: all the love. Yes. Anytime I talk about Jason Callihan turns into this like obnoxious love bomb. You know, whenever Erin meets somebody she really connects with, she'll be like, cinnamon, it's my Cali. Because when Erin joined me in this journey, Jason and I had already had an established relationship of a few years and he really just very quickly turned into one of my best friends, a huge advocate, a big supporter, my street cred. And man, I didn't know what Iwas gonna get when I walked into a meeting in 2017 and they asked me, will you take this gig for a couple minutes to help out this department who had a line of duty death? And [00:52:00] since that time in 17, what one would expect out of a colleague or coworker? We have far exceeded and Jason officiated my wedding.

We used to say Jason married me, but that sounds weird. And he truly has become like a brother and family, and I love his wife and they love my husband. And I never would've expected, to have someone that did what he did. I. And create this gateway into where I was always supposed to be. There is no one else that I can even think of that is anything like what Jason Callihan is in my life. he's a firefighter, he is a pastor, he's a dad, he's a husband, he's a mental health advocate. He's a peer support. He is the guy who doesn't have a podcast, doesn't have a blog, doesn't have a website, doesn't have a YouTube channel, is still, and perhaps always be boots on the ground [00:53:00] doing that micro work that needs to be done day in and day out.

Where he's the guy that the department people call where he is the guy that, the captains might call And say, Hey, we had a bad run. Will you check on my guys? Jason is. The work and isn't looking for a promotion. That's where he wants to be. and that is where he is an incredible servant to the community.

 I could go on and on And, on about this guy 'cause I love him so, so, much. But yeah. Jason Callihan. Hey, what's up dude? Good to see you here. 

Jason: do you have all that wrote down?

Cinnamon: don't, that was a wing it, that was good. That was Erin recorded it. so we'll 

Erin: got a transcript and you can have it for your scrapbook 'cause it was really good.

Jason: Yes. Yes, it was great. It's too much. too much. 

Cinnamon: So other than you having a sick kid, I mean, we had you on and Erin one, so was like so long ago. That was like 99 episodes ago. So [00:54:00] what has happened since you were here? 

Jason: craziness. Like everybody on here, I'm busy. Life, work, home, church, all that crazy. As far as the mental health world, we've been building our team. We just added three more peers. and just to give everybody reference, we have 105 members, on our department. so, that's how many people we have, our peers. We just added three more. So we're at 11 peers. we added three puppy dogs. We added Booth, Tyson and Elvis to our peer group, which they have been pretty awesome. we recently had, an awesome group come in and do three days of training for us. I don't know if you guys ever heard of whole house counseling or not, but um, sit him in. in And did three days for us That was great. then just working on myself. I don't wanna be overwhelmed, so, you know, I still see my clinician on a regular basis. so I see a, clinician for myself, my wife and I see marriage counselor every quarter we're doing that. [00:55:00] I was recently unofficially diagnosed with some stuff that kind of makes sense of, my life.

So it's, just busy, 2 16 year olds that are learning how to drive. So that adds stress. Other than that, the normal, yeah, 

Cinnamon: yeah, everything's normal. so I'm gonna hone in on one specific thing that you said because we could just go down like 15 different paths, especially the fact that you are now five members, which that's where you were when I came to your department. But at 11 peers, that percentage, that ratio is pretty damn good. 

Jason: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: So congratulations for keeping that going.I heard a lot in the beginning of this whole mental health thing where people were very concerned that it was going to be a buzzword and die off, but Jason's department it is IAFF local 20. So when you have a low number, like 20, that means that you are old school you've been around for a minute and you got some hard heads in [00:56:00] there. And, it seemed like it really took something powerful, like a line of duty death to catapult you as an agency to find this is important. But now you have three dogs 

Jason: Mm-hmm. 

Cinnamon: and I remember having these conversations several years ago, but how did you go from being like, we don't need your stinking help.

Please leave our department to, we're gonna bring in three therapy dogs, that'll make all of us feel better. 'cause we get to pet 'em. Like what the hell happened? 

Jason: It's crazy. Obviously, like you said, our line of duty death opened our eyes to we need help. so that, started the conversation then, we met you, you came in and did a lot of education and I was gonna correct Erin earlier. I was listening, I was driving. I didn't have my, screen on while I was driving, so I don't want anybody to judge me. But, she said, I wish we had a medic and I am a medic. I may not be a good one, but I am one.

Erin: I said it. I did. I was like, 

Jason: Did you, doubled back. You doubled back. but a lot of us have that medical, you [00:57:00] know, that anatomy, physiology type brains. And when you came in and did that training for us, that's what the first one was.It was just kind of normalized the way we were feeling and made it Okay. I guess not as taboo. And, we had slipped off in, in the, nine years since Pat died. We had started down a road where, yeah, we were still doing individual work, but we weren't, promoting stuff as much. And then, and obviously we had our suicide a little over a year ago, and that kind of reignited things in us, the dogs. We kicked it around for a while. You know how I feel about dogs or do you, I'm not a, I'm not a dog guy. 

Cinnamon: Why don't you share? Yeah, 

Jason: Yeah,I'm scared of them. Dogs and airplanes are my two biggest fears, but I swallowed that down. And,we've got three dogs. They're awesome and everybody loves them. Some people won't call 'em therapy dogs, they'll just call 'em dogs. But yeah,we're growing. we have a good crew. one of our biggest challenges is probably about 55% of our department [00:58:00] is very young, so seven years and less.

So we're hiring these young folks that are invincible like I was when I was that age. And, teaching them that you're not invincible. And like, I think William or was Ricardo said earlier, he wished he started in the beginning of his career paying attention. that's what we're trying to do.

Even though they feel like they're invincible now, trying to put some things in their minds and in their lives and just say, Hey, this is a safe area. These are safe people you can talk to and keep that door open. I said, that's good. And then, I was, wanted to comment. I met Chris, he probably doesn't remember 'cause he meets all kinds of people, but I met him. He came and spoke at a little seminar at our union hall with Dr. Birkley and this was probably a year and a half ago, I believe.

Cinnamon: Chris, that was the day we met you and I met at the restaurant next door to the union hall that day. That was, that's what is talking 

Chris: Yeah, I remember That Well. Good. 

Jason: I was thinking as he was talking, here's a, I mean, I can't see your whole frame, but I've seen you, you're a big guy. Like I would look at you [00:59:00] judge you as an alpha male. Like you're you're just big studly guy and you're talking about sunshine and you're talking about looking at the moon. And to me that is incredible because it breaks down so many barriers. Nobody's gonna look at you and say, oh, that guy's soft. And you know what I'm our line of work, like that's, but when a guy like you tells your story, it resonates greatly with the young people. So we try to do that you know, I, I shared my story years ago and still do. But I think that is what helps with those younger folks, connect with themand, uh, say, Hey, you know, we're not holding hands singing kumbaya, but, this is important. This is serious. And like you said, it's life or death. 

Erin: Yeah, and Chris, I got that on recording too. The big studly guy, so. 

Cinnamon: You are soft.

Chris: Yeah.I really appreciate that. 

Jason: You're welcome. You're welcome.

Erin: he's, telling the truth. I will tell you that our entire second group that we were with was talking very heavily [01:00:00] about the young generation that's in and about the opportunities that they have when they become the chiefs in a decade or whatever, to actually change this, if we can get our claws in them now. But one of the things that we talked about last time, and it might be important to touch on still, is. Where are we gonna be in five years? And a lot of people said probably not very far, but in 20, when these guys that are brand new in your department, are nearing retirement, they could be the catalyst to the change.

they do have different

vocabulary and they were taught to talk about their feelings and 

they were told that their private parts are their private parts. You know, like there are certain things that fly for this generation. And hopefully it can help change the dynamic

Jason: Absolutely.

Erin: but keep going. we value you more than you can ever know. And I know we've told you that a million times you are big studly guy too. And I wanna say when we did the training and you got up and [01:01:00] you're like, Hey guys, don't mess around. Like, take these ladies seriously. I think that matters too. Seeing it come from you and hearing that like, these girls help me, these girls help people. Take it seriously. So I want to make sure that you hear that it's just as important for you to continue to share the way that you do as well. So thanks for being here. 

Jason: Yeah. 

Chris:  You know, when we talk about what, we're doing and how much progress we're making, you know, and there are days when you get discouraged and you think, well, we're really not making that much progress. When you sit down and you talk to a retired cop that's it's eighties and you approach what PTSD is and what it does to your life, and all of a sudden they recognize it.

And they say, I probably got it too. And then you tell 'em it's a good possibility. Why don't you, you know, look into that. They're like, maybe it's too late. It's like, it's never too late. But when you make somebody from that generation understand, I thought that would never happen. You know, I never wrote that generation off, but man, some of the [01:02:00] things they would say to you is like, wow.

Like that's, that's pretty ridiculously rude what you just said. You know? But they weren't in indoctrinated into that belief system. You know, if your legs falling off, you just, put some dirt on and get back into the fight. and uh, that's not a thing. We don't have to do that anymore. and to get them to see that, it's amazing. 

Ricardo: It's a new day.

Cinnamon: Jason and I had this really bizarre experience together, and I think that it's really important based on whatChris said, that I take this opportunity to share it because I think some of these old school guys, there are a percentage of them that have got us duped, and I wanna speak into that percentage.So I drove to the city of Hamilton, where Jason works and. I was at a fire station, checking in that he was not present at that day. And I met a retiree, hadn't heard his name, But he for whatever reason, was also stopping by the firehouse I was at. I [01:03:00] think he was captain at the time, introduced me and told this retiree who I was, and he goes, it's about damn time. We got people like you in here. Now this guy was tall and lanky and had on some real skinny Wrangler jeans and cowboy boots and I'm pretty sure there might've been a Harley outside that station time.

I really appreciated somebody of this generation saying that, especially knowing that it was his peers that were saying things like, if you're too big of a pussy to handle this job, here's Wendy's application. then I go find Jason at the next house. I go visit and I tell him that I just met this gentleman and I tell him what happened, and he goes. Are you sure that's who you met? And I was like, yeah, that's absolutely a hundred percent what that dude said his name was. He was like, that's so bizarre, because he was one of the biggest ball busters we had.And I thought about that and I'm like, son of a bitch, these guys are faking They're lying. 

Jason: we don't do that. 

Cinnamon: they're [01:04:00] putting out this bullshit that they don't even believe in because they're worried about what the next guy thinks of them. And it takes them retiring to actually tell the truth. So it helped me have a lot less negative feelings around the tippy top oldest generation that is in service right now because I just have it in the back of my head that that badass who was really glad I was there, had been one of the ball busters. And I just keep in my head, you're probably lying. To save face. I don't believe you, when you say you don't believe in this, you are probably also doing this because of this fear of what other people think about you. And I pray that there is a day that comes where you can let go of the fear of other people's judgment that clearly has you trapped in this paralysis that is harming others. Man, talk about a powerful day for me because I didn't [01:05:00] know what I didn't know. I didn't know that was happening. And it makes everybody fit more comfortably for me in this whole framework of everyone is suffering from this stigma. Like no one is exempt. 

William: Everyone. That's the key. It's just not a couple of people that are faking it. We're all falling apart to various degrees, and it takes guys like Chris and Jason and Ricardo to go in and say, Hey, look, I am onto your bullshit because I am. You like, I totally understand what you're doing. you. can sit there, you can puff out your chest. None of us are impressed by anything that you do, right? We know. in fact, I was at your third marriage. I, know what you're doing. I was there with you and so you could pretend and you can do whatever you want. I know you because I am you. And so one of the things that I try to do is I'll tell a story, And we all, we all know the stories that we all tell when we sit around and you talk about how your, kid did this [01:06:00] or you punked out some guy at the supermarket because you could, you know, and you do these things and everybody's like, yeah, ha, ha. ha. yeah, yeah, me too. And it's like, yeah, well we're all stupid and that's actually proof that our emotions are outta whack and we're this, and you know, and and then other people start saying, yeah, well, yeah, maybe.

So a lot of that stigma that is still out there is self-imposed stigma, like you said, the day of. You know, saying, Hey, this bothers me, so, oh, okay, well if you can't hack it, we're gonna run you out of the place. don't really do that anymore. that's still around. But I think a lot of it is around, because I think it's around, it's like I'm afraid to say anything because I was told not to say anything.

And so I'm trying to play this role that I think that they want me to play, but they don't even really want me to play that. So I'm not really even sure why I'm doing it. Then I don't talk to anybody out here 'cause they don't understand and then you're just sort of just crumbling from the inside out.

And so. When a guy like Chris walks in, or Jason or Ricardo or anybody walks in and says, Hey look, let me give you what I've done. Let me show [01:07:00] you my resume and then let me also tell you that you're full of shit. And when you're ready, here's what's available to you. And I get it because I wasn't ready for a long time either.

But just know that you're fooling zero people in this room. Right? and I think that's the important piece, and that's how you talked about the labels earlier, cinnamon. And you know, there's all these things, and I wrote, I wrote this down earlier and I talk about this a lot. We are the obstacle. It's not that there aren't enough resources, there's not enough research, it's us.

We are the problem. And so what we have to do is Chris has to go in and sow seeds and then hope. That they grow to something and that's all we can do. Because, you know, Jason goes in and and because people are watching and that's the label when you ask about, you talked about PTG, and that's, and that's fantastic, but you are the story, dude.

You're the label. it's not like, well, let me tell you about this beautiful thing that you suffer and then you, it's called post-traumatic growth. And now you write a book and you volunteer and you do podcast interviews. No, what it is, is you function in life and you have the happy, healthy existence that you deserve to have because of [01:08:00] what you sacrificed for your community.

And so that's what you guys are doing when you're out there is you're saying, look, I'm doing this because you deserve what I've found and I wanna give this to you. And that, that's an incredible gift. and I don't know, I just wanna make sure you guys know thatbecause that's that's the thing, because we can't get out of our own way. I mean, we would literally drowned so we didn't have to admit that we were drowning. I mean, we're that stupid. So it's so important what, you guys are doing and, the movement that you're pushing. It's just, it's it's unbelievable. So Thank you guys for that.

Chris: Thank you. The thing is, is like what my experience with it so that I.

William: Right. And so those seeds that you're planting are lifelines. people say, well, why do you do this? And what and what do you talk? and I could see it on your face, Chris and Jason, this is life or death, what we're doing and what we're talking about. I had the opportunity to speak to our county board one time and I said, wellness is not just about keeping somebody [01:09:00] happy, so they show up to work. This is about keeping them happy so they live so they can experience life in the sunsets and, and and all the beautiful things out there. Forget work. This is not about the job, man. This is about surviving. And that's the, gift and that's what, we're trying to do out here. and, and, um, to me, there's no greater calling than to help your fellow man, fellow woman, get through life, man. God bless you guys for doing that 

Ricardo: You as well, man. Yeah, all of this this has been awesome to sit here and listen with everyone, but the way you guys are talking as well, I, you're having me flash back to a couple classes, one class in North Carolina where there were groups, like cliques, like you could tell there were cliques in there.

And I had already been told beforehand, this is gonna be a little different. You've got some groups in here. Some people have been here for a long time and set in their ways. And I was like, don't worry about it. I come from where they come from. It'll be all right. and there were a few times where we were talking about some of this discussions and people are going, [01:10:00] oh, and one guy in particular, he did that.

And I went, yeah, no, you're gonna do this anyway. Okay. 'cause I'm telling you, you're not gonna break me. None of you are gonna break me. 'cause I've been where you have been and I'm here to help you. And the only way we're going to do this is by which you use every single day, and that's your voice. This is how we're gonna get through it together is by talking through a lot of this stuff.

And at the end of that class, some of the people who were there who like really didn't want to talk or anything, they came up to me later on and they go, I already was going to be the, you know, I had this shit attitude 'cause I hate classes like this. But now after all of it, I appreciate what you do and we appreciate you.

we needed this. I looked at her and I went, I'll take that. That's a win

if that's what you're taking from this and you're going to be talking more with people and everything from that, that's the whole point of this. And the fact that you guys are there together in [01:11:00] support of each other.

'cause yeah, you guys are right. We don't want to ever look in the mirror and think, is it me? I tell them that in class too. It's like we get in our own way and we have to figure out how to get through it, and a lot of times it's just through conversation, man.Hard conversation. But it's worth it. In the end. It's worth it. 

Erin: Wow. Yeah, we see that too. We see those people. Bucking up against us, and then we'll be in a wellness check and we'll shut the door. And then they'll be like, oh yeah, thank God you're here. But never in the hallway would they ever behave that way. I've been seeing Cinnamon Wright this whole time. I imagine she's got a lot of t-shirt opportunities for us, uh, to produce from the little, little quotes and comments made on today's episode.

And I wanna say that, we must continue to lift each other up, all of us, and we know who our people are and we know that we're not for everybody, and that's [01:12:00] okay. But there is a big enough group of us that are connected in such a profound way that if we continue to roll together and lift each other up and support this whole revolution, Eventually I get through to somebody who is going to be able to really, really change to his dynamic. So I wanna encourage everybody to continue going the way that you're going, but don't burn yourself out. And I also want to acknowledge each of you for making this day as important to you as it is to us. The response was so beautiful. And we would not obviously be able to produce what we're doing and doing what we're doing if it wasn't for each and every one of your voices, because we're just the clinicians. We got some stuff to say. But being able to have the opportunity to put your stories out in the world in a different way. Is very, very important because at the end of the day, it's you they listen to. So we love you. You guys each have such a special place in our heart. We're your biggest cheerleaders, 

And yeah, thank you for [01:13:00] being here today. And I'm saying all that because children just walked in from buses and husband is about to walk in. 

Cinnamon: Erin is such a buzzkill man. Like the rest of us just have like all this freedom to go on all day and like, kids, 

Erin: if I was in my office it wouldn't be that way, but I'm at my husband's office, which is a loft, so it's, yeah. 

Speaker: anyway, 

Cin. You wanna take us out, my darling? 

Cinnamon: yeah. I would love to, we, how did we get this? Like, we're just gonna like, guys, hang on one second. Just excuse me, Erin how in the hell did we get this lucky to not only get to do this work and have these people wanna hang out with us, but like they are so cool. 

Erin: I know. 

Cinnamon: Like we, we have cool friends. Okay, so back to the rest of you. 

William: Right. She was just talking about jason, 

Cinnamon: No, no. I was talking about the handsome and very alive one-eyed willy. Who, who's full of [01:14:00] nothing but bling in his pockets. 

Ricardo: I was waiting for the pyros When you were doing your introduction for Jason. Just like, like a pro wrestler coming out, like intro 

Cinnamon: Yeah. I didn't cry. I mean, if you go back to episode one, you will hear Like, it's real hard for me to talk about him without just being full of love. I mean, yeah. When you have that person that changes the entire trajectory of your life, like, there's not a lot of words in the English language that do that justice, but I think the thing that kind of is resonating with me through these A, B, and C episodes the power of 100 is. This balance that's kind of come out of it where we can't forego looking at the systematic and institutional responsibility and putting everything at the feet of the individual. And in the same way, we cannot forego radical individual responsibility to get the [01:15:00] help that they may need in lieu of finger pointing at the system. And you know, I have this background in women's studies, which means that I have a background in just social justice as a social worker as well. And today I really have just heard a lot of similar messaging. Around. There is no one that gets A, smaller slice of the pie of responsibility. We've got so many of us doing This work that are coming at it a million different ways where talking about we need agencies that are trauma-informed, with policies that are trauma-informed that don't make you, prove with a doctor's note that you needed a mental health day.

Or having a chief come and say, don't you ever talk to my people about taking a mental health day. Or, assuming that they're bulldozing you rather And causing harm like around CID and, the sick days. We have to look at the way that we're operating and creating a culture [01:16:00] that is toxic when we know that there are means to not do that. And we also can't just consistently keep saying, we need to do more. We need to do more. We need to do more every time another one of us dies 

William: Mm. 

Cinnamon: because that is alleviating the responsibility from the individual who at a bare minimum can Google a suicide hotline number. Right? And we're also doing everything we possibly can to close that gap. As much as we seeso many things changing in how we talk about this and the fact that we have whole entire wellness summits and that we've got departments like Local 20 that has three dogs after kicking therapists out. It's just we've come so far and do not be fooled that we were really, really in the fucking red and We got a long ass way to go.

But that does not mean that we don't get to give each other that pat on the back for the hard work that we've put in to saving the lives of [01:17:00] those that are still with us that almost weren't. And each one of us in this screen has a huge part in That And it's easy to forget when you get into the trenches of the work day. And so just that little reminder that everybody can do their part 

Erin: Yeah,  

Cinnamon: And, that that's all I have. 

Ricardo: And scene 

Erin: that was awesome. I'm so glad you what she said, and what it really boils down to is the comma denominator. All of this is you, you, and also every one we lose, we save a hundred, and I firmly believe .

William: It still sucks though, 

Cinnamon: And it still sucks when we lose the one. 

Erin: so. I'm not like, Hey, that's ok, we saved 100.

William: No, no, no. I get it. I get it. But I that's my thing though. And, if I could figure out how to do that, ' cause I will have a hundred people say, you know, thank you. I love the book. I appreciate what you said. I love the, whatever they're saying. But then I got that one that I can't get through, or the one that we just lost, or the one, and it, it destroys [01:18:00] me and I gotta figure out how I can not let that happen again. and I know sometimes it's not up to me, but in fact it's never up to me actually. But I just have to keep working on my faith and my trust. But the difference I think for us, and I know you're trying to wrap it up and I'm sorry, but for me anyways, is that it's personal for me.

Like, because I'm trying to save myself with all of these. I'm not, you know, I go and I'm talking to the people, but I'm really talking to myself over and over and over again. so when something happens to one of us, it happens to all of us. And it really, it really,um, it stings. So 

Ricardo: It continues to be therapeutic as well. I fully get what you're saying. 'cause sometimes people have said like, how do you keep doing this and doing this? I'm like, it's therapeutic for me as well.

Like, and it always will be all of those people that I spoke to. I'm never gonna meet them, but I'm always gonna hear them.

Those voices will always be there. Those moments where I blamed myself that I wished I could do more, that will always be there. But if I can help others through talking through it, maybe [01:19:00] help them not feel that as much, be able to accept that it wasn't their fault and that they're gonna be okay. I'm like, you guys, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna keep doing it.

Cinnamon: Jason, Christina sentiments? 

Chris: I'll just say that when you get to that realization that it wasn't your fault I think it's, the start of everything that's gonna be good because it's a release, I guess was the word I was looking for, and you, you feel freedom, like literally what freedom is supposed to feel like for me, it was the start of my rebirth was like, I've gotta can put this behind me.

This is no longer something that's gonna be hammering at me every single day of my life. And, uh, that's the thing with working with people to get them to that point is, is challenging. It's hard, it's frustrating, it's mind bending at times, but it's worth every bit of it. You know, the first time you have somebody call you, and I, I'll never agree with this.

What they say is when somebody says, you saved my life. I did not save your life. I absolutely did not. I showed you a path and I [01:20:00] walked it with you, but I did not save your life. But when they say that, what greater gift do you want? There's nothing that can compare to that. Money. Can't buy it. it's the greatest victory that there is.

Ricardo: Damn. 

Jason: Oh, you're, waiting on me? 

Cinnamon: Well, I was just like, I'm like, oh, you gotta follow that. Just kidding.

Jason: I echo. These guys are awesome. Everything they've said, I agree with just on the same point, I was told that my first deployment as a peer was to a suicide. And I heard from a guy from New York City, his name's Ralph Esposito, I mean talk about a Brooklyn name, and, uh, he said all our new, the new peers down, he said, there will come a day that you will be the student in one of these. it's gonna happen if you do this long enough, somebody is gonna do this. and it was nine years later for me, or eight year later, it, it happened. But I remember him saying, when it happens, want? to be able to look in the mirror and [01:21:00] say, I did everything that I could. It doesn't matter who I come in contact with. I do my best to give them everything I've got. like, Ricardo said, sometimes I feel selfish in it because it is helping me,

I think more than I'm helping anyone else. But, it's, and then William said, sowing seeds we're sowing seeds problem's. Not the seed, the seed's proven. Hopefully it's not the sower, the person sowing it, but, when that seed doesn't grow, it's because it's, the ground is just not ready to receive it yet. But I'm not gonna be discouraged. None of us are. We just keep throwing it out and eventually it'll, find good ground. I don't have that on my wall. That's, that's, that's in the Bible Actually, I stole that from Jesus. 

Cinnamon: knew that book was gonna come up at some point in this

Jason: Yeah, I stole it from him Yeah. 

Cinnamon: that like plagiarism? 

Jason: Probably. Probably. 

Cinnamon: Well, I, I guess since you quoted the author or 

Ricardo: Isn't that one of those things that it's been there, been out there for so long though. Like you're able to use it though? 

Jason: Yeah. Think so. Think so. 

Ricardo: yeah. It's, it's in the public realm. 

Jason: I gave him the [01:22:00] credit, 

Ricardo: There you

Jason: references. Yeah.

Cinnamon: absolutely. Had you carried on as if like, I came up with this wise quote, you know, Jason, one of the things that I find so durable about you. Is, you know, we came together because of the line of duty death, and I. got so close to you all, which now just replicates on a much larger scale with all of, my clients and all of, the first responders that I get to know doing this work. And I said, there's gonna come a time where if something happens in this agency that I can't run that circle. I need to be in that circle. And for a group of people who really did not want help in the beginning, your agency is the epitome of what it looks like to hold family together because you and your brothers and sisters allowed me a seat at that table to grieve as if I was one of you.

Um, and when I said it, I didn't know that it was ever gonna come into fruition. [01:23:00] Like, God willing, we never would've had to deal with that But I think the two worst things that can happen to a department, you. We're a key individual in walking your department through, and we were blessed enough to see that firsthand and we know how magical you are in doing that. And so 

man, that's the, power of keeping the boots on the ground. And yeah, so my request is please don't get a podcast. Maybe don't even write a book. Just keep doing the thing that you do because you are so damn good at it. Sorry. Jesus. You are so darn it. 

Jason: I don't even know how to spell podcasts, so...

Erin: Oh my gosh. 

Cinnamon: keep it that way

Jason: I don't write in complete sentences, so, yeah.

Erin: Yeah. Keep doing the Lord's work. 

Jason: There you go. 

Erin: There you go. All right. I love you all. 

Cinnamon: She's gotta go. 

Erin: I acknowledge you all. I. This is just the beginning. You know, us coming into each other's lives was not by accident. and I'm excited to see you, IRL and hug you [01:24:00] William Youngin May. Ricardo, I guess we'll wait till next May.

Cinnamon:  Oh no, we're gonna find him first.

Erin: Calli, maybe you could take day off And come meet William in real life too. And Yes, and go in Erlanger, Kentucky. So, Oh, well, I guess you've already met him. Yeah, 

Jason: no. We don't know each other. I just, I  seen each other and they've, been introduced, but they aren't like this yet. We'll get there. 

Erin: now they can. Big beastly, man. Hug.  

Cinnamon: So much testosterone and biceps

Chris: I'm good with that. 

Jason: good with it. Yeah. 

Erin: Yeah. It, they're, they're confident. They're confident. so thank you. Can I stop? 

Cinnamon: Please stop because I really wanna say bald, beefy men hugging with biceps. 

Outro:

Erin: Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of after the tones drop. We've been bringing you some real mental health insights And we'd love to hear what you think. If you're enjoying this show, take a minute and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget, share this podcast with someone who might benefit from it. A big, thank you to whole house counseling and Nova's home mortgage for sponsoring today's episode. 

And a special shout out to Rob Maccabee for writing and producing our shows. music just a quick reminder. After the tones drop is here for informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for medical or psychological advice. If you're in need of help, please reach out to a mental health professional in your area. for more resources. Head over to after the tones drop.com and check out our resources tab. We really appreciate you being a part of this community. Thanks for listening and sharing.